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B10 DNA R1b-Y22958: Jurassic Coast Hore’s



HaplogroupCoordinatorDefining Ancestor
R1b-1a1a2a1a-2b1a1 (ISOGG 2016)
Branch SNP U152-L20
Terminal SNP Y22958
Randy Harr, Roz Edson
r a n d y AT mycuz DOT us,
r o z AT h600 DOT org
Hezekiah Hoar b.1608 Sidmouth, Devon, England m. Rebekah unknown, d. 1693 Taunton, MA;
For historical reasons, we list the Defining Ancestor as Hezekiah Hoar.
The Earliest Known Ancestor (confirmed) is Thomas Hore, b1477 Axminster, Devon, England.
But both of these apply to the sub-group B01. It is not known what the common ancestor for B10 is yet.
This page is now considered a merge of two groups. The original B01 Hezekiah Hoar and the new B10 Jurassic Coast Hore’s.
Autosomal study groups:

(quantity visible depends on authorization)
There is a new (as of August 2016) FamilyTreeDNA Z367 SNP Pack. The SNP Z367 is one step above L20 in most trees. This SNP Pack should cover most of the defined branches below; it does include Z1909. This is the best yDNA SNP test option if your yDNA STR values are matching in this group and you wish to verify your SNP is also strongly matching. If both match, you can simply tag along with the other BigY tests in this group and avoid the major expense yourself.

yDNA Groupings pages linked to a family branch consist of 3 key areas: the STR test analysis for the Haplotype, the SNP analysis for the Haplogroup, and the multiple sub-projects of Autosomal analysis to link nearer-term, non-patrilineal lines into this patrilineal family branch. Each is covered further here.

ySTR Modal (aka Haplotype)

  STR Modal
STR Modal representation of B10DNA (Hezekiah Hoar B01 actually)
This group has very distinct marker values that are fairly rare among the general population.  Specifically, a DYS385 value of 9-14.  Also DYS389ii of 28, DYS458 of 19 and DYS557 of 15.  Also of note is that the normally widely varying DYS464 is identical in all the tested individuals (15-15-16-17). The Modal or Haplotype for Hezekiah Hoar is given in the chart here. The second member tested just so happens to be closest to that modal (genetic distance one). This is likely due to some changed markers changing back in value. Also, more members on more branches tested may change the modal. A modal is a predicted Haplotype for someone long gone and is based on testing as many of their patrilineal descendants on as many different branches as possible.

The most variance between members are in markers introduced with the expansion from 25 to 37 markers by FamilyTreeDNA; specifically markers normally identified as 26 through 37. These markers have been shown to have the most variance among all others used and really almost fall outside the threshold of meeting the criteria to be a semi-stable marker for genetic genealogy purposes. When looking at your genetic distance from other members, and trying to determine the likely age before your MRCA, you may want to throw out the difference introduced by these markers.

There is no publicly available display of marker comparison between branch members here. Members can view a subset in the original FamilyTreeDNA DNA Results Project page. Otherwise, the complete capture is behind member login in a spreadsheet.

Note: This and the new tester to be pushed up to the next level up B10 Jurassic Coast Hore’s and their results compared to the modal from this group / page. Included in this DNA grouping based on STR values is a family line that arrived from England to the America’s in the 1850’s. Their genealogical research takes them back to within 50 km of Thomas Hore at about the same time frame. The STR values indicate a common ancestor maybe a further 100 years back. We are awaiting SNP testing to confirm this to be the case. That family line uses the surname Hoare through uncovered history to present. Also now included is another family which only recently emigrated from England; albeit London area in this case. Their genealogical work places them in the same towns as Hezekiah’s ancestors at around the same time frame. They also are an identical match to one member of the Hezekiah group. We are working to create a new DNA grouping page to match this new family branch study to find the common ancestors.

The specification of STR test results (marker values) is termed a Haplotype. Simplistically, the difference between two peoples marker values, when the absolute value differences are summed, is termed the Genetic Distance. This is not to be confused with Haplogroups designated from the SNP values found in yDNA and mtDNA.

What becomes interesting in STR testing is understanding how well one can predict a surname (or family branch) based on the Haplotype. Now that there are hundreds of thousands of European males tested, studies of frequencies of occurring values is possible. One example, by Alex Williamson, is given on his LittleScottishCluster site as a PDF chart for R1b (M343) and below. His work revolves around a sub-clade well below R1b-L21 which is a sister branch to R1b-U152 that this group a part of. Alex also runs the yTree R1b-P312 Haplogroup tree project.

The declarations above for the rarity of markers that Hezekiah Hoar descendants have is from Leo Little’s published chart and is believed compiled from an early (mid-2000’s) access to the ySearch.org database. It is not known if the Haplogroup designations used are self-declared or predicted, which would taint the value of the results. Alex has started collecting STR measured data along with BigY files and may eventually be able to recreate some of this chart in finer detail for R1b-P312 and below. We are studying, in this project, the extracted STR values from NGS tests like BigY to see how strongly they correlate with the measured results. This to better understand how / when / if to incorporate these extracted STR values into our work here.

ySNP Haplogroup

   Ytree.net Z1909
An annotated capture of the R1b-Z1909 block and below in the ytree.net online tree from 17 Apr 2017 (in support of B10DNA) See http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=778 for the latest version.
   yFull.com Z1909
An annotated capture of the R1b-Z1909 block and below in the yfull.com online tree from 17 Apr 2017 (in support of B10DNA) See http://yfull.com/tree/R-Z1909 for the latest version.
   FamilyTreeDNA
An annotated capture of the R1b-L20 block and below in the FamilyTreeDNA online tree from 16 June 2016 (in support of B10DNA) The tree is not visible if not logged in.
Hezekiah Hoar descendants are in the R1b-L20 subclade and R1b-Z1909 subclade below that. Late in 2016, they were moved from the R1b-Z1909* terminal to a new subclade of R1b-Y22958/Y22248.

Everything below R1b-L20 is considered highly experimental and in flux. In fact, it is only recently being flushed out due to NGS testing. The first chart shown here is the ytree R1b-Z1909 subclade in its entirety as of 17 Apr 2017. The second chart is the yfull R1b-Z1909 subclade from v5.03 in April 2017 as well. Each requires the tester to individually submit to be included. The third chart is the FamilyTreeDNA yTree for subclade R1b-L20 (this is not visible to non-users nor has a specific link to it) as of Summer 2016. This group is represented in all three charts with an entry.

Only a single member has done deep SNP testing (BigY). When more do NGS testing, we will likely see an even further unique, new branch below R1b-Y22958 for this family line.

By the older, YCC long-form “string” designation still used in ISOGG’s yDNA phylogenetic tree, R1b-L20 is known as R1b-1a1a2a1a-2b1a1 (2016). In the new YCC SNP designation terminology, the path down for R1b-1a1a2a1a-2b1a1 is M207 > M173 > M343 > L278/P25 > L754 > L388 > P297 > M269 > L23 > L51 > L151/L52/L11/P310/P311 > P312 > U152 > L2 > Z367 > L20. This is ISOGG’s designation and not the newer ytree which has some additional branch points below R1b-P312 in the path. (Note: There are often multiple SNP’s at a given branch designation. And sometimes multiple names for the same SNP. We try to give the most common or popular name for the branch. But where a single one is lacking, we give more than one name to the branch point.)

The SNP R1b-L20 was added in 2008. Over 90% of European males are in the R1b (R1b-M343) branch of the phylogenetic tree. With still over 50% in the R1b-1a1a2a1a-2 subbranch (R1b-P312) that is the focus of the ytree work. R1b-1a1a2a1a-2b is the R1b-U152 subclade that is one branch point immediately below R1b-P312 (in the ISOGG tree; actually 2 additional steps in the experimental ytree tree) and contains the largest grouping of European males below R1b-P312. These are all ancient lines in that the SNP marker that designates the branch was introduced into the population thousands of years ago.

Because a majority of the Europeans are in R1b-P312, and that is where ytree starts, you can skip by all the pages and designations for the ancient phylogenetic tree above R1b-P312 and simply use ytree as a starting point to understand where you fit within the majority of historical European males.

[+] Old Charts

1K Genomes match and other items of note

Of note is the fact that as we keep getting pushed down a more refined branch, one test kit keeps sticking with us. A submission to the 1,000 Genomes Project of a man from Colombia. A father, mother and son were all tested. Only the fathers results are provided in detail and hence only his match. We have no real further information except we suspect the purpose of testing the family is they were believed to be native American. They are identified in the database as being sourced “American”. But the fact the SNP match is so close, we can only suspect that a Hore descendant went to Colombia. Likely sometime earlier and long forgotten in the family line. See Kit HG01358 of the son to find the family and father’s kit.

   Auray and Le Croisic, France
Map showing Auray and Le Croisic in France and their closeness to each other.
It is interesting to also note that in early 2016, there were two other testers in this R1b-Z1909* terminal sub-clade with Hezekiah. But they are not part of our surname project nor share the surname. Both claim French heritage (and have french-origin surnames; one is Duval, the other Gillard). Although not at all conclusive, this is the first indication of possible Norman descent from the different Hore/Hoar/Hoare family lines tested. This may be significant to the lore associated with the surname; that the name originated with a Norman Knight William de la Hore mentioned in the Doomsday book of 1033 AD. Highly speculative but interesting.

The branching has since refined further and we are on a separate sub-branch. The Colombian and the french descendant Gillard has stuck with this group (note: Gillard has not transferred his results to yFull or yTree ). Gillard has roots traced to Le Croisic, France. About 35 miles across the bay from Auray. Auray, which one legend states, is the source of the surname (de la Auray that back then was de la Hore). Again, highly speculative but interesting.

This group has some pretty rare STR values, as already mentioned. And some SNP values that are not changed (consistently) earlier in the branching of the current phylogenetic tree. We conjecture that maybe the phylogenetic tree needs re-balancing and placement of this group at a higher up branch point. Or a realization that a few SNP values could have changed back to “normal” or “Ancestral” in this family line. We have as yet to study the NGS result of the 1K Genomes tester from Colombia to see if he shares these rare STR values. The STR values for this group are reasonably close to the Gillard tester; but he does not share the rare values.

Of further note is that the U152 project co-admin Steve Gilbert and the H600 Project co-admin Tim Peterman are both in R1b-L20. Tim now has links to all three major lines in this project: Charles Hoare (great-grandmother), John Hord (?xgreat-grandmother) and now Hezekiah Hoar (ancient, 5,000 years+ ago common patrilineal line ancestor). Tim and Steve are each down a different branch below R1b-L20. Steve was with our Z1909* terminal at one point but has since pushed down a different new branch. This new branching is all due to looking at novel variants that, with analysis and other testers with common novel variants, creates new branching. Most branch points have many variants used to define that branch; rarely just one although historically more so true.

Measuring this Haplogroup with various test services

23andMe MorelyDNA

ytree.morleyDNA.com analysis of a 23andMe (v3/v4) file in the B10DNA group
AncestryDNA MoreleyDNA

ytree.morleyDNA.com analysis of an AncestryDNA file in the B10DNA group
FTDNA result:
SNP Pack Z367

FTDNA SNP Pack Z367 result as displayed by FTDNA in their tree view

Depicted in charts here are the results of the MorleyDNA analysis on 23andMe and Ancestry test results for this group; as well as the FTDNA SNP Pack Z367 result. AncestryDNA, 23andMe, NGG and others provide some testing on the Y Chromosome. Here is the analysis of how far they get your toward the terminal result from an NGS test like BigY. The services provide information on approximately 1,000, 3,000 and 15,000 SNPs; respectively. The first two can most easily be analyzed using the MorleyDNA analysis tool. To help understand the results better, we first show the path designation from Haplogroup R down to the terminal haplogroup R1b-Y22958/Y22248:

M207 > M173 > M343 > L278/P25 > L754 > L388 > P297 > M269 > L23 > L51 > L151/L52/L11/P310/P311 > P312 > U152 > L2 > Z367 > L20 > Z1909/Z1910 > Y22958/Y22248

  • FamilyTreeDNA STR testing predicts a Haplogroup of M269. As a result, they only offer (directly) the SNP Pack M343 to test if you are predicted in M269.
  • AncestryDNA SNP testing (as shown in the MorleyDNA analysis) shows the Haplogroup as L151.
  • 23andMe SNP testing (as shown in the MorleyDNA analysis and given by the 23andMe (v3, v4) site has the Haplogroup as L20.
  • NGG Geno2.0 NextGen testing (with hand analysis) shows the Haplogroup as L20. The new Plus test may show further; we have as yet to check deeper into this result.
  • FamilyTreeDNA SNP Pack Z367 reports down to haplogroup Z1910*. It starts with Z367 which is one branch above L20. If you match STR values in this group, you can confidently take this test directly.
  • FamilyTreeDNA BigY reports down to haplogroup Z1910* but has novel variants beyond that. There are no other direct matches at Z1910* shown in their match database since tested in 2015. But yTree and yFull have more structure below Z1910* than FTDNA shows. Currently, BigY is the deepest test one can take on the Y chromosome.
  • yTree and yFull analysis of the BigY test result extract more and report further down to a new terminal branch of Y22958/Y22248.


Should likely also mention. Way back in the day before BigY, SNP Packs and similar Y DNA SNP testing, one of our members (the first to STR test and do any kind of SNP) ordered a single SNP test of P25, which he is positive for. P25 is just below what was then the predicted R1b or M343. This and the above should explain all possible Haplogroup values you see in the group chart.