B10 DNA (U152) R1b-Y74239: Jurassic Coast Hore's

As the y12 STR test is no longer available, the best way to get a pretty strong indicator of being in this group is to take one of the microarray tests and use Cladefinder to read the yDNA SNPs in that. Then you can either ride on the coat tails of other WGS and BigY-700 testers or test deeper with one of those to see if you have unique SNPs in the surname era.

yDNA Groupings pages linked to a family branch consist of 3 key areas: the STR test analysis for the Haplotype, the SNP analysis for the Haplogroup, and the multiple sub-projects of Autosomal analysis to link nearer-term, non-Patrilines into this Patriline family branch. Each is covered further here.

ySTR Modal (aka EKA Haplotype)

This group has very distinct STR marker values that are fairly rare among the general population. Specifically, a DYS385 value of 9-14 (9 being the rare value; 11, 12, etc. being more common). Also a DYS389ii value of 28, DYS458 of 19 and DYS557 of 15.  Also of note is that the normally widely varying DYS464 is identical in all the tested individuals (15-15-16-17). The Modal or Haplotype for Hezekiah Hoar is given in the chart here. The second member tested just so happens to be closest to that modal with a y111 (genetic distance of one). This is likely due to some markers changing back in value as a modal based on Hezekiah descendants without him is slightly different. This is also strengthened by the fact that a later tester, not tying into the Hezekiah descendant line until before Hezekiah (1600), is a closer match to the second tester than that tester is to other common Hezekiah descendants. More members on more branches tested may change the modal. A modal is a predicted Haplotype for an MRCA and is based on testing as many of their Patriline descendants on as many different branches as possible.

The most variance between members are in markers introduced with the expansion from 25 to 37 markers by FamilyTreeDNA. Specifically markers normally identified as 26 through 37 and oft identified as panel 3. These markers have been shown to have the most variance among all others used in FTDNA y111 testing and really almost fall outside the threshold of the criteria to be a semi-stable marker for genetic genealogy use. When looking at your genetic distance from other members, and trying to determine the likely age before your MRCA, you may want to discount the difference introduced by these markers.

There is no publicly available display of marker comparison between branch members here. Members can view a subset in the FamilyTreeDNA DNA Results Project page. Otherwise, the complete capture is behind member login in a spreadsheet; for privacy reasons. This allows users to divulge their real name to other group members without divulging to the public as a whole.

Note: There are four testers that have pushed up this original B01DNA page to the newly created group B10 Jurassic Coast Hore's . Included in this DNA grouping, based on STR values, is a family line that arrived from England to the America's in the 1850's. And another that never left England. Their genealogical research takes them back to within 50 km of the Hezekiah EKA Thomas Hore group at about the same time frame. The STR values indicate a common ancestor maybe a further 100 years back. BigY SNP testing confirms this to be the case. These new family lines use the surname Hoare through recent history to the present. Almost all in England who historically had the surname Hore are spelling it as Hoare in moden times. Also now included is another family which only recently emigrated from England; albeit London area in this case. Their genealogical work places them in the same towns as Hezekiah's ancestors at around the same time frame. They also are an "identical" match to one member of the Hezekiah group in y37. We are reworking this DNA grouping page to incorporate this new B10DNA family branch study and find the common ancestor.

The specification of STR test results (marker values) is termed a Haplotype. Simplistically, the difference between two peoples marker values, when the absolute value differences are summed, is termed the Genetic Distance. This is not to be confused with Haplogroups designated from the SNP values found in yDNA and mtDNA. There are variations to this simplistic method of calculating a genetic distance that try to take into account learned statistical variances in various STR markers. Or especially when multi-step changes occur; especially Nulls due to a more major structural variation in the DNA.

What becomes interesting in STR testing is understanding how well one can predict a surname (or family branch) based on the Haplotype. Now that there are hundreds of thousands of European males tested, studies of the STR value occurrence frequencies are possible. One example, by Alex Williamson, is given on his LittleScottishCluster site as a PDF chart for R1b (M343) and below. Alex's work revolves around a subclade well below R1b-L21 which is a sister branch to R1b-U152 that this group a part of. Alex also runs the yTree R1b-P312 Haplogroup tree project.

The declarations above for the rarity of markers that Hezekiah Hoar descendants have is from Leo Little's published chart and is believed compiled from an early (mid-2000's) access to the ySearch.org database. It is not known if the Haplogroup designations used are self-declared or predicted for each sample used, which would taint the value of the results. Alex has started collecting STR measured data along with BigY VCF files and may eventually be able to recreate some of this chart in finer detail for R1b-P312 and below. yFull is now working this also. We are studying, in this project, the extracted STR values from sequencing tests like BigY to see how strongly they correlate with the measured FTDNA panel test results. This to better understand how / when / if to incorporate these extracted STR values into our work here as they dramatically increase the pool of available STR values to compare against. Unfortunately, for the y112-y700+ value sets, yFull and FTDNA have used different STR names. And neither has defined their markers (location in the genome, reference value, etc). Not to mention the value ranges, in general, appear very different. So no comparison of these extended sets is really possible except maybe within a single site. Frequencies of change are not known although most appear very stable. All STR values above the y111 base set are extracted from NGS sequencing results mapped against the Build 38 reference model.

ySNP Haplogroup

Hezekiah Hoar descendants are in the R1b-L20 clade and R1b-Z1909 subclade below that. Late in 2016, they were moved from the R1b-Z1909* terminal to a new haplogroup of R1b-Y22958/Y22248 by yFull and yTree. Only in April 2018 did FTDNA catch up and move them this one step further down when a second member here BigY tested. yFull and yTree were able to create the new terminal earlier because of the match with the 1KGenome tester described below. With the second tester introduced everywhere, a strong enough differentiation of over 10 SNPs unique to the two testers allowed FTDNA to push us another level down; and the other two services to also create a new lower branch of R1b-Y74239/Y61652. FTDNA only includes their own testers to create their experimental tree and hence is still lagging. The other sites incorporate other test company sequencing results (such as from Full Genomes Corp, YSEQ, and Dante Labs); as well as other published results such as the 1KGenome study. Our testers have chosen of late to upgrade and test deeper using WGS; and so FTDNA will continue to lag further behind in our particular branch here. FTDNA has recently started adding some scientific test results like the 1KGenome project to their BigY tree.

Everything below R1b-L20 is considered experimental and in flux. In fact, it is only recently being flushed out due to sequencing tests. The first chart shown here is the ytree R1b-Z1909 subclade in its entirety as of 17 Apr 2017. The second chart is the yfull R1b-Z1909 subclade from v5.03 in April 2017 as well. Each requires the tester to individually submit to be included. The third chart is the FamilyTreeDNA yTree for subclade R1b-L20 (this is not visible to non-users nor has a specific link to it) as of Summer 2016. This group is represented in all three charts with an entry. Only three members have done deep SNP testing (that is, BigY or WGS). When more do sequencing testing, we will likely see an even further unique, new branch below R1b-Y22958 for this family line. Except for the expansion by FTDNA down to the terminal R1b-Y22958/Y22248 in April 2018, there has been no change in the tree structure below R1b-L20 to this terminal to warrant capturing the tree images again. But you can follow the links given to see the absolute latest.

The haplogroup R1b-L20 was added to the phylogenetic tree in 2008. By the older, YCC long-form "string" designation, R1b-L20 is known as R1b-1a1a2a1a-2b1a1 (2016). See the page above on R1b-P312) for the path to R1b-P312 and its description. Ignoring the R1b-1a1a2a1a-2 (R1b-P312) base for R1b-L20, the YCC SNP path down for just the tail b1a1 is U152 > L2 > Z367 > L20 as of July 2017. This is ISOGG's designation and not the newer ytree which has some additional branch points below the R1b-P312 haplogroup in the path.

Just below R1b-P312 is haplogroup R1b-U152 (R1b-1a1a2a1a-2b) (in the ISOGG tree; actually 2 additional steps below in the ytree). R1b-U152 contains the largest grouping of European males below R1b-P312 and is a significant point of study on its own.

[+] Old Charts

1K Genomes match and other items of note

Of note is the fact that as we keep getting pushed down a more refined branch, one test kit keeps sticking with us. A submission to the 1,000 Genomes Project of a man from Colombia. A father, mother and son were all tested. Only the fathers results are provided in detail and hence only his match is available. We have no real further information except we suspect the purpose of testing the family is they were believed to be native American. They are identified in the database as being sourced "American". But the fact the SNP match is so close, we can only suspect that a Hore descendant went to Colombia. Likely sometime earlier and long forgotten in the family line. See Kit HG01358 of the son to find the family and father's kit. The data is available from there (BAM, etc) but on a very slow to deliver server. A copy is on AWS but only as an AWS bucket that can be referenced for local processing on their service. yFull has been the only tree / site to include the 1KGenome project samples in their tree.

It is interesting to also note that in early 2016, there were two other testers in this R1b-Z1909* terminal haplogroup with Hezekiah. But they are not part of our surname project nor share the surname. Both claim French heritage (and have French-origin surnames; one is Duval, the other Gillard). Although not at all conclusive, this is the first indication of possible Norman descent from the different Hore/Hoar/Hoare family lines tested. This may be significant to the lore associated with the surname; that the name originated with a Norman Knight William de la Hore mentioned in the Doomsday book of 1033 AD. Highly speculative but interesting.

As of early 2017, the branching has refined further and we are on a separate sub-branch. The Colombian and the French descendant Gillard has stuck with this group (note: Gillard has not transferred his results to yFull nor yTree ). Gillard has roots traced to Le Croisic, France. About 35 miles across the bay from Auray. Auray, which one legend states, is the source of the surname (de la Auray that back then was de la Hore). Again, highly speculative but interesting. Since early 2018 and the expansion of the tree due to BigY-500 upgrades, Gillard has pulled out to a separate nearby branch.

This group has some pretty rare STR values, as already mentioned. And some SNP values that are not changed (consistently) earlier in the branching of the current phylogenetic tree. We conjecture that maybe the phylogenetic tree needs re-balancing and placement of this group at a higher up branch point. Or a realization that a few SNP values could have changed back to "normal" or "Ancestral" in this family line. We have as yet to study the Sequencing result of the 1KGenomes tester from Colombia to see if he shares these rare STR values. The STR values for this group are reasonably close to the Gillard tester; but he does not share the rare values. We have as yet to check if the 1KGenomes tester has calls on the SNPs further up the tree that seem to be Ancestral. Instead of a rebalancing of the tree, we really mean to say a new SNP of a change back to Ancestral should likely be inserted as a new branch haplogroup. It is also possible the SNP is unreliable and needs to be dropped from all trees.

Of further note is that the U152 project co-admin Steve Gilbert and the H600 Project co-admin Tim Peterman are both in R1b-L20. Tim now has links to all three major lines in this project: Charles Hoare (via his great-grandmother), John Hord (via a ?xgreat-grandmother) and now Hezekiah Hoar (ancient, 5,000 years+ ago common patriline ancestor via R1b-L20). Tim and Steve are each down a different branch below R1b-L20. Steve was with our Z1909* terminal at one point but has since pushed down a different new branch that has multiple levels. This new branching is all due to looking at novel variants that, with analysis and other testers with common novel variants, creates new branching. Most branch points have many SNP variants used to define that branch; rarely just one in this area.

Measuring this Haplogroup with various test services

Or more correctly, measuring this family branches' haplogroup with various test services that have varying levels of accuracy in their test. Covered here is the depth of each tests coverage that gets members of this family branch toward the current leaf haplogroup result in the phylogenetic tree given by an Sequencing test like BigY. Several have BigY tested and/or full-sequenced WGS tested to include their Y Chromosome. Depicted in charts to the right are the results of performing the MorleyDNA analysis on 23andMe and Ancestry test results for this branch; as well as analyzing the FTDNA SNP Pack Z367, NGG as well as WGS results. AncestryDNA, 23andMe, NGG and others provide varying amounts of SNP testing on the Y Chromosome with their microarray tests. Approximately 1,000, 3,000 and 15,000 yDNA SNPs; respectively. The SNP Pack Z367 tests far less but is targeted at members of the haplogroups around the leaf of this family branch and so far more effective in coverage near the leaf. BigY originally reported around 75,000 known SNPs in test results. With the new upgrade all current and older testers received, that has increased to around 350,000 plus SNPs. 23andMe and Ancestry can be most easily analyzed using the MorleyDNA analysis tool; if not simply reported by the testing company directly. To help understand the depth of coverage better, we show the path designation from Haplogroup R down to the current terminal haplogroup R1b-Y74239/Y61652 with the haplogroups covered by each service indicated below each haplogroups SNP name along the path:

R-M207 Haplogroup Coverage By Various Test Services

Due to some discussion on a message board, we analyzed haplogroup R-M207 specifically. To see which tests covered which of the 20 SNPs in that haplogroup. The results were a little surprising. BigY had the worst coverage and reported less than 50% of the values. NGG was the best. See the diagram that depicts the results from the various test services.

History of L20

As R1b-L20 was so undeveloped for a long time, we felt it useful to capture a bit of history as this clade grows with new branches and testers. To look at the history of L20, one needs to understand the history of the yDNA phylogenetic tree. YCC was the first curator of a public tree. As they closed down, the nascent ISOGG formed a subgroup to take over and continue publishing and curating the tree. Early on, both FTDNA and 23andMe were using the tree for their yDNA haplogroup reporting. Key is the ISOGG tree was created from published, refereed scientific articles. Starting with the NGG project and its support from FTDNA, a further, deeper tree developed from the DTC testing. At the time, the NGG test offered the most SNP coverage of any available test. Therefore offering the deepest placement from a general survey test. R1b-U152 only was added to the ISOGG tree in 2006 soon after they started out. It was not until 2008 that L2 and L20 were actually added and became the new terminal / leaf for this group here. And 2011 when Z367/S255 was added between L2 and L20. The source starting point of the SNP Pack for this area of the tree.

Here is a table by year showing the lowest "leaf" in the tree(s) down to the current haplogroup here. In the mid-2010's, ISOGG's tree went stagnant and unmanaged. As it is, the DTC testing market way overtook the refereed research paper results as it was. So from 2015 onwards, the leaf reference is from the FTDNA and then more recently the yFull trees. (See notes above why yFull continues to be better for this group than FTDNA.)

Year	YCC Short SNP Name	YCC Long Path Name	Notes
2019
2018		R1b1a1a2a1a2b1a1
2017
2016
2015
2014		R1b1a2a1a2b1a1_
2013		R1b1a2a1a2b1a1_
2012		R1b1a2a1a1b2a1a	S255 added as a pseudonym for Z367
2011	L20	R1b1a2a1a1b3c1a	Z367 first added between L2 and L20
2010		R1b1b2a1a2d3a__
2009		R1b1b2a1a2d3a__
2008	L20	R1b1b2a1b4c1___	L20 first added (why so long when part of the reference model?)
2007	U152	R1b1c10________
2006	U152	R1b1c10________	U152 first added, ISOGG tree takes over from YCC

An interesting fact is that the main male tester used to create the Y chromosome reference in the Human Genome Reference Model that finished in 2003 is actually below haplogroup L20 . Which immediately should cause one to question: ''Why is not L20 and the SNPs down to it ancestral in the genome reference model given it defines it?

Asked this of Thomas Krahn at YSEQ in a Facebook group post, here is some of his response:

Aaron Ballagans' Facebook Comment in response to inquiries about adding the Y chromosome to the Telomere to Telomere (T2T) DRAFT reference model, further states:

Now this is not inconsistent. As of Sep 2021, yFull still only has a leaf Haplogroup of CTS7275 with that single SNP entry. SNP CTS7275 is not in the FTDNA BigY Tree at all (or any equivalent that we can tell from yBrowse). As of the last 2 years, FTDNA has greatly expanded their tree under L20. SNP S26186 is not in the yFull tree (nor is the haplogroup above it named as BY3584). Our presumption is that haplogroup BY3584 is equivalent to haplogroup CTS7275 at yFull at the current time.