The H600 Project Genealogy DB

Jacob Haehl

Male 1829 - 1892  (62 years)


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Generation: 1

  1. 1.  Jacob Haehl was born on 6 Jul 1829 in Bavaria, Germany; died on 6 Jun 1892; was buried in Willits, Mendocino Co, California, USA (Little Lake Cemetery).

    Notes:

    If you have corrections and/or updated information on this person please contact Roz Edson at MrsEdson@gmail.com

    Jacob married Mary Whited. Mary was born on 6 Jul 1842 in Indiana, USA; died on 21 Feb 1925; was buried in Willits, Mendocino Co, California, USA (Little Lake Cemetery). [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 2. Adah Haehl  Descendancy chart to this point was born on 26 Dec 1870 in Willits, Mendocino Co, California, USA; died on 20 Jun 1951 in Kelso, Cowlitz Co, Washington, USA.
    2. 3. Rosa A. Haehl  Descendancy chart to this point was born on 21 Jun 1874 in California, USA; died on 24 Jan 1963; was buried in Willits, Mendocino Co, California, USA (Little Lake Cemetery).
    3. 4. William J. Haehl  Descendancy chart to this point was born on 6 Dec 1875 in California, USA; died on 24 Mar 1942; was buried in Willits, Mendocino Co, California, USA (Little Lake Cemetery).
    4. 5. Cora J. Haehl  Descendancy chart to this point was born in Aug 1877 in California, USA.
    5. 6. Laura Haehl  Descendancy chart to this point was born on 15 Feb 1880 in Willits, Mendocino Co, California, USA; died on 27 Dec 1959 in , Shasta Co, California, USA; was buried in Ukiah, Mendocino Co, California, USA (Russian River Cemetery).
    6. 7. Henry J. Haehl  Descendancy chart to this point was born in Mar 1883 in California, USA.
    7. 8. Grace A. Haehl  Descendancy chart to this point was born in Jan 1888 in California, USA.


Generation: 2

  1. 2.  Adah Haehl Descendancy chart to this point (1.Jacob1) was born on 26 Dec 1870 in Willits, Mendocino Co, California, USA; died on 20 Jun 1951 in Kelso, Cowlitz Co, Washington, USA.

    Other Events:

    • Census: 1910 1920 1930

    Notes:

    If you have corrections and/or updated information on this person please contact Roz Edson at MrsEdson@gmail.com

    Mountain Democrat Newspaper, Placerville, California.
    Marriage License (Intention) published May 24, 1902.
    Frank Horr, of Placerville
    Adah Haehl, of Willits

    Marriage:
    https://www.familysearch.org/search/recordDetails/show?uri=https://api.familysearch.org/records/pal:/MM9.1.r/Y5H2-4ZM/p1

    Obituary:
    Newspaper: Daily Chronicle, The
    Published: Saturday, June 21, 1952, Centralia, Washington
    Mrs. Adah H. Horr, 81, died Friday
    in a Kelso nursing home where
    she had been the past year, She
    was a Ryderwood resident. Mrs.
    Horr was born on Dec. 26, 1870,
    In WilHls, Calif.
    Survivors include two sons, Jack
    L. and Rlley G. Horr, both of Hillsboro,
    Ore.; a daughter, Mrs. Kitty
    Ely, Ryderwood: a brother, Henry
    Haehl, Willits Calif., and four sisters,
    Miss Rose Haehl and Mrs.
    Cora Davidson, both of Ukiah,
    Calif., Mrs. Grace Vanelll, Oakland,
    Calif., and Mrs. Laura Horr,
    ?W Bedding, Calif.
    Funeral services are pending at
    a Winlock mortuary

    Adah married Frank Horr on 10 May 1902 in , El Dorado Co, California, USA. Frank (son of Riley Horr and Louisa Ives) was born in Dec 1855 in Watertown, Jefferson Co, New York, USA; died on 11 Sep 1916 in , Sonoma Co, California, USA. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 9. Jack Horr  Descendancy chart to this point was born on 13 Nov 1897 in California, USA; died on 13 Jun 1969 in ; was buried in Vader, Lewis Co, Washington, USA (Little Falls Cemetery).
    2. 10. Riley Horr  Descendancy chart to this point was born on 17 Nov 1905 in , Siskiyou Co, California, USA; died on 13 Mar 1969 in ; was buried in Vader, Lewis Co, Washington, USA (Little Falls Cemetery).
    3. 11. Kitty Horr  Descendancy chart to this point was born on 2 Dec 1906 in , Shasta Co, California, USA; died in in .
    4. 12. Frank Horr  Descendancy chart to this point was born on 15 Jul 1909 in , Lassen Co, California, USA; died in Nov-Dec 1909 in , Lassen Co, California, USA.

  2. 3.  Rosa A. Haehl Descendancy chart to this point (1.Jacob1) was born on 21 Jun 1874 in California, USA; died on 24 Jan 1963; was buried in Willits, Mendocino Co, California, USA (Little Lake Cemetery).

  3. 4.  William J. Haehl Descendancy chart to this point (1.Jacob1) was born on 6 Dec 1875 in California, USA; died on 24 Mar 1942; was buried in Willits, Mendocino Co, California, USA (Little Lake Cemetery).

  4. 5.  Cora J. Haehl Descendancy chart to this point (1.Jacob1) was born in Aug 1877 in California, USA.

    Notes:

    Age 2 in the 1880 Census.

    Cora married (Male) Davidson. [Group Sheet]


  5. 6.  Laura Haehl Descendancy chart to this point (1.Jacob1) was born on 15 Feb 1880 in Willits, Mendocino Co, California, USA; died on 27 Dec 1959 in , Shasta Co, California, USA; was buried in Ukiah, Mendocino Co, California, USA (Russian River Cemetery).

    Other Events:

    • Census: 1910 1920 1930

    Notes:

    If you have corrections and/or updated information on this person please contact Roz Edson at MrsEdson@gmail.com

    California Death Records

    Laura married Fred Horr on 1 Jul 1900 in Ukiah, Mendocino Co, California, USA. Fred (son of Riley Horr and Louisa Ives) was born on 19 Jul 1878 in Unity, Clark Co, Wisconsin, USA; died on 27 Sep 1967 in Redding, Shasta Co, California, USA; was buried in Ukiah, Mendocino Co, California, USA (Russian River Cemetery). [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 13. Hazel Horr  Descendancy chart to this point was born on 20 Dec 1902 in , Mendocino Co, California, USA; died on 15 Nov 1986 in Redding, Shasta Co, California, USA; was buried in Tipton, Tulare Co, California, USA (Tipton-Pixley Cemetery).
    2. 14. Helen Horr  Descendancy chart to this point was born on 31 Jul 1904 in California, USA; died on 8 Sep 1991 in , Humboldt Co, California, USA.
    3. 15. Clifford Horr, Sr.  Descendancy chart to this point was born on 28 Mar 1906 in California, USA; died on 22 Jan 1955 in , Shasta Co, California, USA.
    4. 16. Robert Horr  Descendancy chart to this point was born on 7 Dec 1908 in Dana, Shasta Co, California, USA; died on 9 Apr 1997 in Flagstaff, Coconino Co, Arizona, USA.
    5. 17. Richard Horr  Descendancy chart to this point was born on 29 Sep 1910 in , Shasta Co, California, USA; died on 15 Nov 1975 in Redding, Shasta Co, California, USA; was buried in Anderson, Shasta Co, California, USA (Anderson District Cemetery).
    6. 18. Doris Horr  Descendancy chart to this point was born on 10 Aug 1913 in Burney Twp, Shasta Co, California, USA; died on 5 Aug 2003 in Redding, Shasta Co, California, USA.
    7. 19. Henry Horr  Descendancy chart to this point was born on 1 May 1916 in Burney Twp, Shasta Co, California, USA; died on 17 Sep 1988 in Round Mountain, Shasta Co, California, USA; was buried in Montgomery Creek, Shasta Co, California, USA (Holcomb Cemetery).
    8. 20. Lenora Horr  Descendancy chart to this point was born on 17 Dec 1921 in Chico, Butte Co, California, USA; died on 8 May 2006.

  6. 7.  Henry J. Haehl Descendancy chart to this point (1.Jacob1) was born in Mar 1883 in California, USA.

  7. 8.  Grace A. Haehl Descendancy chart to this point (1.Jacob1) was born in Jan 1888 in California, USA.

    Grace married (Male) Vanelli?. [Group Sheet]



Generation: 3

  1. 9.  Jack Horr Descendancy chart to this point (2.Adah2, 1.Jacob1) was born on 13 Nov 1897 in California, USA; died on 13 Jun 1969 in ; was buried in Vader, Lewis Co, Washington, USA (Little Falls Cemetery).

    Other Events:

    • Census: [1900] 1910 1920 1930

    Notes:

    If you have corrections and/or updated information on this person please contact Roz Edson at MrsEdson@gmail.com

    Cannot find him in the 1900 census. In the 1900 census his father was listed as single, and his mother was living with her parents, listed as single.

    [[The following census information was compiled and contributed by Joyce S.

    1920 Census: Aberdeen, Grays Harbor Co, Washington
    Jack Horr, lodger, age 22, single, bp CA, f's bp NY, m's bp CA, Rigging Man- lumber

    Living with mother in 1930.
    1930 Census: Vader, Lewis Co, Washington
    Jack Horr, son, age 32, single, bp CA, f's bp KY, m's bp CA


  2. 10.  Riley Horr Descendancy chart to this point (2.Adah2, 1.Jacob1) was born on 17 Nov 1905 in , Siskiyou Co, California, USA; died on 13 Mar 1969 in ; was buried in Vader, Lewis Co, Washington, USA (Little Falls Cemetery).

    Other Events:

    • Census: 1910 1920 1930

    Notes:

    If you have corrections and/or updated information on this person please contact Roz Edson at MrsEdson@gmail.com

    Field Title Value Meaning
    ARMY SERIAL NUMBER 39173761 39173761
    NAME HORR#RILEY#G############ HORR#RILEY#G############
    RESIDENCE: STATE 97 WASHINGTON
    RESIDENCE: COUNTY 015 COWLITZ
    PLACE OF ENLISTMENT 9784 TACOMA WASHINGTON
    DATE OF ENLISTMENT DAY 13 13
    DATE OF ENLISTMENT MONTH 04 04
    DATE OF ENLISTMENT YEAR 42 42
    GRADE: ALPHA DESIGNATION PVT# Private
    GRADE: CODE 8 Private
    BRANCH: ALPHA DESIGNATION BI# Branch Immaterial - Warrant Officers, USA
    BRANCH: CODE 00 Branch Immaterial - Warrant Officers, USA
    FIELD USE AS DESIRED # #
    TERM OF ENLISTMENT 5 Enlistment for the duration of the War or other emergency, plus six months, subject to the discretion of the President or otherwise according to law
    LONGEVITY ### ###
    SOURCE OF ARMY PERSONNEL 0 Civil Life
    NATIVITY 91 CALIFORNIA
    YEAR OF BIRTH 05 05
    RACE AND CITIZENSHIP 1 White, citizen
    EDUCATION 1 1 year of high school
    CIVILIAN OCCUPATION 736 Semiskilled chauffeurs and drivers, bus, taxi, truck, and tractor
    MARITAL STATUS 6 Single, without dependents
    COMPONENT OF THE ARMY 7 Selectees (Enlisted Men)
    CARD NUMBER # #
    BOX NUMBER 1402 1402
    FILM REEL NUMBER 6.168 6.168

    Cemetery:
    http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=horr&GSiman=1&GScid=76900&GRid=42350129&

    [[The following census information was compiled and contributed by Joyce S.

    Living with mother in 1920.
    1920 Census Records for Burney Twp, Shasta Co, California
    Riley G. Horr, son, age 14, bp CA, NY CA

    Living with mother in 1930.
    1930 Census: Vader, Lewis Co, Washington
    George Horr, son, age 24, single, bp CA, f's bp KY, m's bp CA, Logger- lumber industry


  3. 11.  Kitty Horr Descendancy chart to this point (2.Adah2, 1.Jacob1) was born on 2 Dec 1906 in , Shasta Co, California, USA; died in in .

    Other Events:

    • Census: 1910 1920

    Notes:

    If you have corrections and/or updated information on this person please contact Roz Edson at MrsEdson@gmail.com

    Groom's name: Joe Ely
    Groom's age in years: 25
    Groom's estimated birth year: 1901
    Groom's residence:
    Bride's name: Kitty M R Horr
    Bride's age in years: 19
    Bride's estimated birth year: 1907
    Bride's residence:
    Marriage date: 04 Sep 1926
    Marriage place: , , Washington
    Marriage license date: 04 Sep 1926
    Marriage recording place: , Lewis, Washington
    Groom's father's name: James Ely
    Groom's mother's name: Lowenda Stantter
    Father of bride's name: Frank Horr
    Mother of bride's name: Eddah Haehl
    Digital GS number: 4135608
    Image number: 00683
    Volume:
    Collection: Washington State County Marriages, 1858-1950


    [[The following census information was compiled and contributed by Joyce S.

    Calif Birth Records: http://www.vitalsearch-ca.com/
    Last_Name*First_Name*Middle_Name*B_yr*B_mo*B_dy*Mothers_Last_Name*Sex*County_of_Birth*
    HORR KITTY M 1906 12 02 HAEHL FEMALE SHASTA Co, Calif

    Living with mother in 1920.
    1920 Census Records for Burney Twp, Shasta Co, California
    Kitty M. Horr, dau, age 13, bp CA, NY CA

    Kitty married Joe Ely on 4 Sep 1926 in , Lewis Co, Washington, USA. Joe (son of James Ely and Lowenda Stantter) was born about 1901. [Group Sheet]


  4. 12.  Frank Horr Descendancy chart to this point (2.Adah2, 1.Jacob1) was born on 15 Jul 1909 in , Lassen Co, California, USA; died in Nov-Dec 1909 in , Lassen Co, California, USA.

    Notes:

    If you have corrections and/or updated information on this person please contact Roz Edson at MrsEdson@gmail.com

    Calif Birth Records: http://www.vitalsearch-ca.com/
    HORR FRANK 1909 07 15 HAEHL MALE LASSEN


  5. 13.  Hazel Horr Descendancy chart to this point (6.Laura2, 1.Jacob1) was born on 20 Dec 1902 in , Mendocino Co, California, USA; died on 15 Nov 1986 in Redding, Shasta Co, California, USA; was buried in Tipton, Tulare Co, California, USA (Tipton-Pixley Cemetery).

    Other Events:

    • Census: 1910 1920 1930

    Notes:

    If you have corrections and/or updated information on this person please contact Roz Edson at MrsEdson@gmail.com

    Cemetery:
    http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=sagaser&GSfn=hazel&GSbyrel=all&GSdyrel=all&GSst=6&GScntry=4&GSob=n&GRid=75877961&df=all&

    [[The following census information was compiled and contributed by Joyce S.

    Calif Death Records, SSDI

    Living with parents in 1930.
    1930 Census: Redding, Shasta Co, California
    Hazel Lee, dau, age 27, single, bp CA, Sales Clerk- retail store

    Hazel married (Male) Lee. [Group Sheet]

    Hazel married James Melvin Sagaser. James (son of Jacob Washington Sagaser and Cinda Ella Reynolds) was born on 21 Jun 1893 in Pixley, Tulare Co, California, USA; died in Sep 1967 in Tucson, Pima Co, Arizona, USA; was buried in Tipton, Tulare Co, California, USA (Tipton-Pixley Cemetery). [Group Sheet]


  6. 14.  Helen Horr Descendancy chart to this point (6.Laura2, 1.Jacob1) was born on 31 Jul 1904 in California, USA; died on 8 Sep 1991 in , Humboldt Co, California, USA.

    Other Events:

    • Census: 1910 1920

    Notes:

    If you have corrections and/or updated information on this person please contact Roz Edson at MrsEdson@gmail.com

    [[The following census information was compiled and contributed by Joyce S.

    Calif Death Records

    Living with parents in 1920.
    1920 Census: Burney, Shasta Co, California
    Transcribed as HARR
    Helen L. Horr, dau, age 15, bp CA

    Not living at home in 1930.

    Helen married James Tracey. James was born on 10 Jan 1895; died in Oct 1979 in Fortuna, Humboldt Co, California, USA. [Group Sheet]


  7. 15.  Clifford Horr, Sr. Descendancy chart to this point (6.Laura2, 1.Jacob1) was born on 28 Mar 1906 in California, USA; died on 22 Jan 1955 in , Shasta Co, California, USA.

    Other Events:

    • Census: 1910 1920 1930

    Notes:

    If you have corrections and/or updated information on this person please contact Roz Edson at MrsEdson@gmail.com

    [[The following census information was compiled and contributed by Joyce S.

    Calif Death Records

    Living with parents in 1930.
    1930 Census: Redding, Shasta Co, California
    Clifford Horr, son, age 26, bp CA, Lumberman- saw mill

    Clifford married Mary Petroff on 7 Dec 1940. Mary (daughter of Marion Petroff and Nellie Martin) was born on 30 Nov 1917 in , San Francisco Co, California, USA; died on 12 Jun 1999. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 21. Clifford Horr  Descendancy chart to this point was born on 6 Jul 1944 in California, USA; died on 10 Jul 1944 in , Tehama Co, California, USA.
    2. 22. Living  Descendancy chart to this point
    3. 23. Ronald Horr  Descendancy chart to this point was born on 27 Jan 1954 in , San Francisco Co, California, USA; died on 28 Jan 1954 in , San Francisco Co, California, USA.
    4. 24. Living  Descendancy chart to this point

  8. 16.  Robert Horr Descendancy chart to this point (6.Laura2, 1.Jacob1) was born on 7 Dec 1908 in Dana, Shasta Co, California, USA; died on 9 Apr 1997 in Flagstaff, Coconino Co, Arizona, USA.

    Other Events:

    • Census: 1910 1920 1930

    Notes:

    If you have corrections and/or updated information on this person please contact Roz Edson at MrsEdson@gmail.com

    [[The following census information was compiled and contributed by Joyce S.

    Living with parents in 1930.
    1930 Census: Redding, Shasta Co, California
    Robert Horr, son, age 21, bp CA, Lumberman- lumber mill

    Robert married Neva Bartell on 28 Jul 1934 in Carson City, , Nevada, USA. Neva was born on 29 May 1911 in Ono, Shasta Co, California, USA; died on 31 Jul 2003 in Phoenix, Maricopa Co, Arizona, USA. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 25. Living  Descendancy chart to this point
    2. 26. Living  Descendancy chart to this point

  9. 17.  Richard Horr Descendancy chart to this point (6.Laura2, 1.Jacob1) was born on 29 Sep 1910 in , Shasta Co, California, USA; died on 15 Nov 1975 in Redding, Shasta Co, California, USA; was buried in Anderson, Shasta Co, California, USA (Anderson District Cemetery).

    Other Events:

    • Census: 1920 1930

    Notes:

    If you have corrections and/or updated information on this person please contact Roz Edson at MrsEdson@gmail.com

    Cemetery:
    http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=horr&GSfn=richard&GSbyrel=all&GSdyrel=all&GSob=n&GRid=38646861&df=all&

    [[The following census information was compiled and contributed by Joyce S.

    SSDI
    California Death Records

    Living with parents in 1930.
    1930 Census: Redding, Shasta Co, California
    Richard Horr, son, age 19, bp CA, Lumberman- saw mill


  10. 18.  Doris Horr Descendancy chart to this point (6.Laura2, 1.Jacob1) was born on 10 Aug 1913 in Burney Twp, Shasta Co, California, USA; died on 5 Aug 2003 in Redding, Shasta Co, California, USA.

    Other Events:

    • Census: 1920 1930

    Notes:

    If you have corrections and/or updated information on this person please contact Roz Edson at MrsEdson@gmail.com

    SSDI

    Calif birth Records: http://www.vitalsearch-ca.com/
    HORR DORIS L 1913 08 10 HAEHL FEMALE SHASTA

    Living with parents in 1930.
    Doris Horr, dau, age 12, bp CA

    Doris married (Male) Holland. (Male) was born about 1913. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 27. Janet Susan Holland  Descendancy chart to this point was born on 12 May 1953 in California, USA; died on 17 May 1997 in , Shasta Co, California, USA.

  11. 19.  Henry Horr Descendancy chart to this point (6.Laura2, 1.Jacob1) was born on 1 May 1916 in Burney Twp, Shasta Co, California, USA; died on 17 Sep 1988 in Round Mountain, Shasta Co, California, USA; was buried in Montgomery Creek, Shasta Co, California, USA (Holcomb Cemetery).

    Other Events:

    • Census: 1920 1930

    Notes:

    If you have corrections and/or updated information on this person please contact Roz Edson at MrsEdson@gmail.com

    [[The following census information was compiled and contributed by Joyce S.

    Calif Death Records.

    Living with parents in 1930.
    1930 Census: Redding, Shasta Co, California
    Henry Horr, son, age 13, bp CA

    Henry married Garland England. Garland (daughter of John Winfred England and Kathleen Kinsall) was born on 9 Oct 1922 in Kansas, USA; died on 3 Dec 1989 in , Shasta Co, California, USA; was buried in Montgomery Creek, Shasta Co, California, USA (Holcomb Cemetery). [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 28. Living  Descendancy chart to this point

  12. 20.  Lenora Horr Descendancy chart to this point (6.Laura2, 1.Jacob1) was born on 17 Dec 1921 in Chico, Butte Co, California, USA; died on 8 May 2006.

    Other Events:

    • Census: 1930

    Notes:

    If you have corrections and/or updated information on this person please contact Roz Edson at MrsEdson@gmail.com

    Social Security Applications and Claims, 1936-2007
    Name: Lenora Elizabeth Horr
    [Lenora E Mahan] Gender: Female Race: White Birth Date: 17 Dec 1921 Birth Place: Chico Butte, California Father Name: Fred J Horr Mother Name: Laura E Haehl Death Date: 8 May 2006 Type of Claim: Original SSN. Notes: Mar 1940: Name listed as LENORA ELIZABETH HORR; Dec 1946: Name listed as LENORA E MAHAN

    [[The following census information was compiled and contributed by Joyce S.

    Living with parents in 1930.
    1930 Census: Redding, Shasta Co, California
    Lenora Horr, dau, age 8, bp CA

    Lenora married (Male) Mahan. (Male) was born about 1921. [Group Sheet]



Generation: 4

  1. 21.  Clifford Horr Descendancy chart to this point (15.Clifford3, 6.Laura2, 1.Jacob1) was born on 6 Jul 1944 in California, USA; died on 10 Jul 1944 in , Tehama Co, California, USA.

    Notes:

    If you have corrections and/or updated information on this person please contact Roz Edson at MrsEdson@gmail.com


  2. 22.  Living Descendancy chart to this point (15.Clifford3, 6.Laura2, 1.Jacob1)

  3. 23.  Ronald Horr Descendancy chart to this point (15.Clifford3, 6.Laura2, 1.Jacob1) was born on 27 Jan 1954 in , San Francisco Co, California, USA; died on 28 Jan 1954 in , San Francisco Co, California, USA.

    Notes:

    If you have corrections and/or updated information on this person please contact Roz Edson at MrsEdson@gmail.com


  4. 24.  Living Descendancy chart to this point (15.Clifford3, 6.Laura2, 1.Jacob1)

  5. 25.  Living Descendancy chart to this point (16.Robert3, 6.Laura2, 1.Jacob1)

    Living married Living. [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 29. Living  Descendancy chart to this point

  6. 26.  Living Descendancy chart to this point (16.Robert3, 6.Laura2, 1.Jacob1)

    Living married Living (son of Perry S. Franklin) [Group Sheet]


  7. 27.  Janet Susan Holland Descendancy chart to this point (18.Doris3, 6.Laura2, 1.Jacob1) was born on 12 May 1953 in California, USA; died on 17 May 1997 in , Shasta Co, California, USA.

    Notes:

    If you have corrections and/or updated information on this person please contact Roz Edson at MrsEdson@gmail.com

    Calif Death Records:
    HOLLAND, JANET SUSAN 05/12/1953 HORR HOLLAND F CALIFORNIA SHASTA 05/17/1997


  8. 28.  Living Descendancy chart to this point (19.Henry3, 6.Laura2, 1.Jacob1)

    Living married Living [Group Sheet]

    Children:
    1. 30. Living  Descendancy chart to this point
    2. 31. Living  Descendancy chart to this point
    3. 32. Living  Descendancy chart to this point